Ryan and Jesse comments RE: gay marriage

I'm sorry to clog things, but wanted to pull this out of the comments. If I had more time I'd summarize...but copy-paste is so fast!

Ryan said...
Jesse, I find your comments extremely interesting. Thank you very much for sharing. Now, I don’t want to pry, and I’ll understand if you don’t comment, but I’m really interested in this issue as it pertains to the church. It seems to me that the First Presidency has put the weight of their calling into this issue and have evoked very strong and religiously charged language, asking people to devote "time and means" if I remember correctly, to encourage church members to be actively in favor of the marriage amendment in California. What would you do if you were in California? Do you have a moral obligation as a member of a democracy to speak you views, even if they aren’t in agreement with the church? Would publicly speaking those views undermine your commitments to the church? Or do your views make you more likely to view the teachings of church leaders as having a natural, as opposed to a divine, origin? I know I’m trending on delicate ground, but I feel these conversations are important to have somewhere. And this seems to be a group of very intelligent and accomplished people from many fields of study, who seem to have strong faith as well, so it seems like an ideal group of people to help me make sense of things. Just as a side note, I enjoyed reading an extensive interview with the apostle constitutional lawyer/judge, in which he talks of the prophet and the ERA amendment (he said the church couldn’t defend it’s position rationally, only could appeal to revelation), and about disagreeing with church positions, apostasy, etc. http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary
July 20, 2008 12:02 PM
Jesse said...
I stated above that I believe the court was wrong to decide what they did. I further argued that this is not a question for the courts to decide. I think that is consistent with the church's position. I didn't say anything about my views on a constitutional amendment. I believe the amendment is meant as a check to perceived judicial overreach. I am therefore in agreement with it. I don't view that as inconsistent with what I've said elsewhere. It has seemed to me that, in the past, some leaders of the church have given insufficient thought to my earlier point: even if I personally believe something to be immoral that does not mean the government should force others to act in some way (take drug/alcohol laws for example). I deal with this conflict the way any of you would---through prayer, meditation, scripture study, etc.
July 20, 2008 6:08 PM
Ryan said...
I can sympathize with the feeling that this is judicial over-reach. But if I understand you, you like the California amendment but for a reason that is slightly different from the church's reasoning. Your focus is more on countering the judicial over-reach. I get the impression that if the people vote to strike down the amendment, then you would be at peace with that, because the people have had their say, they have countered a judicial over-reach? When you talk about not forcing people to do the moral thing,I think you're saying that the courts shouldn't force their sense of fairness on others, rather than saying that people shouldn't force their heterosexual values on others? Just trying to understand, because the first time around I got the impression you were talking about the latter, but now I think that you're talking about former.I was in Massachusetts, too, when this was all settled. And reading the newspapers that day I felt a sense of peace that though I was opposed to it, that our elective officials had voted for what they felt was right, and that many of them had struggled with it a lot, and that it appeared that a consensus had been reached. Most people seemed happy about it. I was glad that the constitution process had been followed and that all branches of government had been involved to some extent. I appreciate you're point of prayer and meditation, but there must also be study. I believe there is room in the church for honest differences of opinion, honest questioning, investigative study, and open dialogue. I kind of sympathize with Tennyson, "There lives more faith in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds." But I really don't want to be a trouble maker about these things, so I won't push the issue. Just thought I would throw something out. I'm still an active church member with hope and belief. But I'm certainly on a journey to understand more. I think my training as a scientist has given me an appetite for asking a lot of annoying questions.
July 20, 2008 9:18 PM
Jesse said...
Ryan-Thanks for your comments and questions. I agree with your thoughts on dissent and active questioning. My only regret is that this is all taking place in the comments---and I'm trying to avoid comment discussion where possible. I'd move it to the main page if I had the time to quickly summarize or something.In any case my "not forcing morals" argument is about both the contexts you mentioned. Courts should interpret the laws as set forth by the constitution and legislation, period. I also am in favor of individual freedom---even if I personally disagree with it. I would not favor laws that restrict individual freedom for moral reasons. A law against homosexual acts, for example, I would not support.I also have to comment on the MA ruling. I disagree with your view that the issue was in any way properly "settled." The legislature delayed the vote until after state elections were held (which indicates that the amendment had broad support) and only voted after the supreme court found them in abdication of their responsibilities under the constitution. The amendment process required a second vote which took place later that year...needed 50 votes to be put before the voters...got 45 votes with 4 absent. My experience with MA politics has not been the least bit favorable---I can think of few more corrupt and less transparent institutions. Polls indicated the amendment would have passed had it been put before the voters.Anyway as I indicated I'm not that worried about the MA ruling...I just wouldn't personally hold it up as a model of the system working correctly.